Tuesday, August 31, 2004
Yak: I know why you made the call :). It is rough watching a goon make money but when someone is on tilt the flop/turn/river doesn't matter to them. Their money is going in and it is your job to protect yours until you have a decisive edge. The reason why I think your hand is important to go over even though you won is that you will build your bankroll because you are a good player. At this level you are playing at, if you lose $2 you really don't care. Once you move up in stakes, a mistake like that starts costing you 20,30 dollars instead (trust me I know :). The bigger point I failed to get across earlier was that just because your at a penny table doesn't mean you should treat it differently than at a bigger table. You build bad habits playing pots you shouldn't be in and that WILL come back to haunt you. The hand is done now and you will correct your play and take it as a learning experience.
Rich: Your turn :)
I was very happy you posted this hand because it is this type of hand that seperates winning players from break even players. Like Yakko, you might consider playing the hand differently and I will try to show you why.
Preflop selection. Not the worst call I have ever seen and I do admit a suited ace with 2 face cards and a weak low is not a bad hand to play. The key point here is who is doing the raising and in that respect you were right to call. The only problem is that an A4 is not a good low but it also makes it an easy hand to drop after the flop if you miss.
Flop: I like your check on the flop because any time you are given a free card you should take it especially against people who are going to raise at almost any other time. So far so good.
Turn: I want to seperate this into two sections, A) how you played it to the river and B) how you might consider playing it.
A) Dynamite turn. You hit your nut flush but there is that one card left to fuck you. You have the 2nd best low and the nut high hand. Guys are pissing their pants getting thier money in when you clearly have the best hand. Just calling this hand is a good play IF and ONLY if ... when the board pairs you can fold your hand without hesitation. A flat call here is designed to take the "safe approach" in case the board pairs. The only problem with this, is that if the board doesn't pair you get no action on your flush cause the goons already have their money in and anyone calling more than likely has 2 pair or trips and will fold. Problem #2 is the player jakeace. The question you have to ask yourself if you see 3 people calling ahead of you what would be the most likely hand to call if you don't have the nut flush? The answer is an A2. If the board pairs on the river you might be 2nd best both ways and that gets you broke fast and if you suspect he has an A2 you might be putting in cash for only 50% of the pot. The only saving grace to this hand is that you will be heads up at the river and chances are the guy will have the nut low or the high so calling a bet is a gaurantee. I would also want to mention that this would be the correct way to play this hand if you had no low cards in your hand and just the nut flush. Checking in that case would not give away your hand strength and than you can throw it away easily with not much invested if the board pairs.
River: Of course the board has to pair and jakeace goes all in. I would still put jakeace on either the high or the low, in this case still an A2, so a call here doesn't lose you any money. More than likely your chips in the middle are already gone to a goon who just hit with his two pair. It is very key to realize if you were multiway at the end (3 or more)... you HAVE to lay it down without hesitation. Being 2nd best both ways leads to being broke. The end result was great for you but here is part B).
B) The call preflop, and your play on the flop will not change here. The big difference here is on the turn. I would have gotten all my chips into the middle after the initial raises without hesitation. There are a couple reasons for this.
1) If the guy has A2 and no hope for a high, the very best he can do is 50% and if an A or 2 hits you get it all anyways vs if he still had chips on the river where he would have folded and you would have gotten no extra value. This is called a freeroll cause the worst you can do is 50% and you have a good chance to take everything. If he did have A2 he will call gauanteed as well so you don't have to worry about losing his $$.
2) If the guy has 2 pair and wants to draw on you make him pay dearly. You hit the nuts with only 1 card left so don't give him a free draw. If he hits he hits but it is much worse if you check and he hits. As much as you want people calling with 2 pair or trips, it is not always a bad thing to get people to lay them down. Otherwise you are stuck in a very very tough position like you were when the board paired. Poker is much easier when the decsions are made easy and a re-raise on the turn does it for you. You are in when you are the best and the favorite overall(not always the case in O8b ... think about it) so you can never ask for more.
3) People think you are a goon playing O8b. We think all the other players are goons and I gaurantee you they think you are a weak player for folding often. This is untrue of course but when the board is 789, they might put you on a straight instead of a flush even if you rarely bet. Anyone with a queen or even a jack high flush will call you down.
Drawbacks:
The only drawback to playing this way is when lady luck gets her strap on and bends you over on the river by pairing the board. You might go broke but when your the favorite in the hand and the favorite overall you will win more. So many people don't draw to the nuts in O8b so I don't think you have to be worried about too many people folding.
The two ways I described on how to play this hand would have more than likely ended up with the same result ... Rich schooling the goons horrifically. I would sugguest that at a tougher table you should always play the way B) does because a good player won't hesitate to fold the trips or 2 pair. At the penny tables playing A) is ok to because you will more than likely get action after the turn when you have the nuts. Only at the penny tables :) so keep that in mind as well. Overall not bad but it is the result that counts.
OK now for the fun part of the blog .... THE TOURNAMENT REPORT that I was suppose to do yesturday but ya know. Here is a recap of my 1+0 PL adventure at 4 am sunday morning.
FIRST HOUR
Buying into a 1+0 tournament you never really know what to expect. I expect a lot of bad players because of the entrance fee and at this time of night I also expect a lot of degenerate gamblers that have some game. At the bell 109 entrants entered the tournament making top prize paying just over $33. 33x your buy in for top spot is a good ammount to shoot for. I bought in for 250 points because I could and ding the tournament starts. The first hour is what I originally expected and by 4:30 only 52 players had remained. Nothing much in the first hour to report but I did get AA and KK and made them both pay playing ABC poker. At the first break I was 22/40 putting me in my favorite place in the tournament. I always like being middle of the pack because you haven't stood out yet showing off your game and you are doing decent enough to start your game plan. First hour didn't test me and I didn't get into tough situations.
Hour 2
My table never got broken up from the start and I really played some predictable hands so I was hoping to get moved. 30 minutes into the second hour my table got broken up and I got sat to the left of the chip leader. Not a good sign. After watching him play I knew I wasn't in that bad of shape. The chip leader played most hands and bet every flop. He bet the blind if he had nothing, and bet the pot if he had a good hand. I was amazed at how predictable he was. After a few check raises I think he got a little pissed off at me. I was sitting with 6600 and he had just over 35k. I get dealt J9 in the small blind and all the action folded to us. I called the big blind and he checked. The flop came J99. Not a bad flop I must say. I checked and checked and check-raised and he gave me over 3k more calling with a mere pair of aces he hit on the river. The next 2 hands I played were the critical hands I played in my tournament. Both times I had AQ which I had raised agaist smaller stacks and I got re-raised by them both times with 44 and 66. Each time the river brought me a queen and I had just over 10000 chips going into the final 21 players. Top 20 paid in this tournament but 11-20 paid a whooping 21 cents profit. I wasn't playing to get 11-20 :). I played some great poker being aggresive and always check raising the chip leader and took down some nice pots with some good bluffs. The field dwindled to 11 players and when player 11 was eliminated I had just over 10k in chips putting me in 4th place going into the final table.
FINAL TABLE
It is funny because the chip leader who sat beside me for a good part of the game was now directly across from me. I knew at that moment I would play heads up with him at the end. I have quite a bit of final table experience and I know that when the table has 10 players again it is not the time to be aggressive. I sat back and watched blind after blind go away and soon we were down to 6 handed play. Now is the time to start making some moves. Every time a blind got stolen from me I always got it back with a steal by the end of the next round. A few hands later I hit the nut flush and by check-raising the chip leader he paid me off again and I was in second place with about 1/2 the stack of the chip leader. You really would think this guy would get the message. I also bluffed more than my norm by check raising and I took down quite a few pots. I made it down to 3 handed and during this time I managed to double up again via the chip leader and we had 50k chips each to 10k from the other guy. The 3rd place guy went out on a horrific outdraw by the chip leader and just like I predicted before I was heads up with the guy who single handed built my stack.
HEADS UP
I told my buddy scroumf I would finish top 20 before I started because I haven't really played many pot limit tournaments but my fundamentals are solid and I knew heads up is a patient game yet again. After multiple raises preflop I decided to get aggressive as well and we both traded shots but I did keep a slight lead on him. The last hand of the tournament dealth me a KQ offsuit. The ironic thing about this hand is that I didn't play KQ once the entire tournament. I see so many people losing with this hand and I never play it unless I have position. Here in the hand history.
Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #2525870-70 at Mon5amA-Final (Pot Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 30/Aug/04 07:40:11
JChen is at seat 0 with 45220.
XXXXXXXX is at seat 5 with 64780.
The button is at seat 5.
XXXXXXXX posts the small blind of 600.
JChen posts the big blind of 1200.
JChen: -- --
XXXXXXXX: K
Q
Pre-flop:
XXXXXXXX calls. JChen raises to 2400. XXXXXXXX
re-raises to 7200. JChen calls.
Jchen raised every hand just like in the tournament and KQ is a very strong hand heads up so I popped him for 5x. Without hesitation he calls.
Flop (board: 9Flop (board: 9 J
A):
JChen bets 1200. XXXXXXXX calls
A flop with some draw potential but when Jchen bets the blind ... Guess what he has :)
Turn (board: 9Turn (board: 9): J): A): Q):):
JChen bets 1200. XXXXXXXX calls.
At this point I have 2nd pair with a good kicker, a straight draw and the nut flush draw. I could have raised him at this point by why knock him out now when I have so many cards to give me the nut hand.
River (board: 9 J A Q 3):
JChen bets 19200. XXXXXXXX goes all-in for 55180.
JChen goes all-in for 35620. XXXXXXXX is returned
19560 (uncalled).
I hit the nuts on the river and I have someone betting into me. I knew he had a diamond and I wondered if he ever got sick of the re-raising and the check raising. I put him all and luckily he called with his 8
Showdown:
JChen has 8Showdown:
JChen has 8 9 A Q 3: flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX has K 9 A Q 3: flush, ace high.
Hand #2525870-70 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
XXXXXXXX wins 90440 with flush, ace high.
JChen is eliminated.
-----------------------------------------------
I hit the nuts and he paid me off all game. I had a read on him and he never once changed his tactics. I won the $33 dollar first prize and that may not sound like a lot but I didn't risk any money to enter. I will take it and run.
I hope you enjoyed my tournament wrap up and I would like to leave with a few comments for the bloggers on here.
Yak/Rich if you want to put the club/diam/heart/spade pictures just message me on msn and I will provide you with the details how.
Also if you have to block out your names as well please use something other than XXXXXX. It is a little confusing and it will make seperating our posts a bit easier. Thank you and good night/morning :)
Rich: Your turn :)
I was very happy you posted this hand because it is this type of hand that seperates winning players from break even players. Like Yakko, you might consider playing the hand differently and I will try to show you why.
Preflop selection. Not the worst call I have ever seen and I do admit a suited ace with 2 face cards and a weak low is not a bad hand to play. The key point here is who is doing the raising and in that respect you were right to call. The only problem is that an A4 is not a good low but it also makes it an easy hand to drop after the flop if you miss.
Flop: I like your check on the flop because any time you are given a free card you should take it especially against people who are going to raise at almost any other time. So far so good.
Turn: I want to seperate this into two sections, A) how you played it to the river and B) how you might consider playing it.
A) Dynamite turn. You hit your nut flush but there is that one card left to fuck you. You have the 2nd best low and the nut high hand. Guys are pissing their pants getting thier money in when you clearly have the best hand. Just calling this hand is a good play IF and ONLY if ... when the board pairs you can fold your hand without hesitation. A flat call here is designed to take the "safe approach" in case the board pairs. The only problem with this, is that if the board doesn't pair you get no action on your flush cause the goons already have their money in and anyone calling more than likely has 2 pair or trips and will fold. Problem #2 is the player jakeace. The question you have to ask yourself if you see 3 people calling ahead of you what would be the most likely hand to call if you don't have the nut flush? The answer is an A2. If the board pairs on the river you might be 2nd best both ways and that gets you broke fast and if you suspect he has an A2 you might be putting in cash for only 50% of the pot. The only saving grace to this hand is that you will be heads up at the river and chances are the guy will have the nut low or the high so calling a bet is a gaurantee. I would also want to mention that this would be the correct way to play this hand if you had no low cards in your hand and just the nut flush. Checking in that case would not give away your hand strength and than you can throw it away easily with not much invested if the board pairs.
River: Of course the board has to pair and jakeace goes all in. I would still put jakeace on either the high or the low, in this case still an A2, so a call here doesn't lose you any money. More than likely your chips in the middle are already gone to a goon who just hit with his two pair. It is very key to realize if you were multiway at the end (3 or more)... you HAVE to lay it down without hesitation. Being 2nd best both ways leads to being broke. The end result was great for you but here is part B).
B) The call preflop, and your play on the flop will not change here. The big difference here is on the turn. I would have gotten all my chips into the middle after the initial raises without hesitation. There are a couple reasons for this.
1) If the guy has A2 and no hope for a high, the very best he can do is 50% and if an A or 2 hits you get it all anyways vs if he still had chips on the river where he would have folded and you would have gotten no extra value. This is called a freeroll cause the worst you can do is 50% and you have a good chance to take everything. If he did have A2 he will call gauanteed as well so you don't have to worry about losing his $$.
2) If the guy has 2 pair and wants to draw on you make him pay dearly. You hit the nuts with only 1 card left so don't give him a free draw. If he hits he hits but it is much worse if you check and he hits. As much as you want people calling with 2 pair or trips, it is not always a bad thing to get people to lay them down. Otherwise you are stuck in a very very tough position like you were when the board paired. Poker is much easier when the decsions are made easy and a re-raise on the turn does it for you. You are in when you are the best and the favorite overall(not always the case in O8b ... think about it) so you can never ask for more.
3) People think you are a goon playing O8b. We think all the other players are goons and I gaurantee you they think you are a weak player for folding often. This is untrue of course but when the board is 789, they might put you on a straight instead of a flush even if you rarely bet. Anyone with a queen or even a jack high flush will call you down.
Drawbacks:
The only drawback to playing this way is when lady luck gets her strap on and bends you over on the river by pairing the board. You might go broke but when your the favorite in the hand and the favorite overall you will win more. So many people don't draw to the nuts in O8b so I don't think you have to be worried about too many people folding.
The two ways I described on how to play this hand would have more than likely ended up with the same result ... Rich schooling the goons horrifically. I would sugguest that at a tougher table you should always play the way B) does because a good player won't hesitate to fold the trips or 2 pair. At the penny tables playing A) is ok to because you will more than likely get action after the turn when you have the nuts. Only at the penny tables :) so keep that in mind as well. Overall not bad but it is the result that counts.
OK now for the fun part of the blog .... THE TOURNAMENT REPORT that I was suppose to do yesturday but ya know. Here is a recap of my 1+0 PL adventure at 4 am sunday morning.
FIRST HOUR
Buying into a 1+0 tournament you never really know what to expect. I expect a lot of bad players because of the entrance fee and at this time of night I also expect a lot of degenerate gamblers that have some game. At the bell 109 entrants entered the tournament making top prize paying just over $33. 33x your buy in for top spot is a good ammount to shoot for. I bought in for 250 points because I could and ding the tournament starts. The first hour is what I originally expected and by 4:30 only 52 players had remained. Nothing much in the first hour to report but I did get AA and KK and made them both pay playing ABC poker. At the first break I was 22/40 putting me in my favorite place in the tournament. I always like being middle of the pack because you haven't stood out yet showing off your game and you are doing decent enough to start your game plan. First hour didn't test me and I didn't get into tough situations.
Hour 2
My table never got broken up from the start and I really played some predictable hands so I was hoping to get moved. 30 minutes into the second hour my table got broken up and I got sat to the left of the chip leader. Not a good sign. After watching him play I knew I wasn't in that bad of shape. The chip leader played most hands and bet every flop. He bet the blind if he had nothing, and bet the pot if he had a good hand. I was amazed at how predictable he was. After a few check raises I think he got a little pissed off at me. I was sitting with 6600 and he had just over 35k. I get dealt J9 in the small blind and all the action folded to us. I called the big blind and he checked. The flop came J99. Not a bad flop I must say. I checked and checked and check-raised and he gave me over 3k more calling with a mere pair of aces he hit on the river. The next 2 hands I played were the critical hands I played in my tournament. Both times I had AQ which I had raised agaist smaller stacks and I got re-raised by them both times with 44 and 66. Each time the river brought me a queen and I had just over 10000 chips going into the final 21 players. Top 20 paid in this tournament but 11-20 paid a whooping 21 cents profit. I wasn't playing to get 11-20 :). I played some great poker being aggresive and always check raising the chip leader and took down some nice pots with some good bluffs. The field dwindled to 11 players and when player 11 was eliminated I had just over 10k in chips putting me in 4th place going into the final table.
FINAL TABLE
It is funny because the chip leader who sat beside me for a good part of the game was now directly across from me. I knew at that moment I would play heads up with him at the end. I have quite a bit of final table experience and I know that when the table has 10 players again it is not the time to be aggressive. I sat back and watched blind after blind go away and soon we were down to 6 handed play. Now is the time to start making some moves. Every time a blind got stolen from me I always got it back with a steal by the end of the next round. A few hands later I hit the nut flush and by check-raising the chip leader he paid me off again and I was in second place with about 1/2 the stack of the chip leader. You really would think this guy would get the message. I also bluffed more than my norm by check raising and I took down quite a few pots. I made it down to 3 handed and during this time I managed to double up again via the chip leader and we had 50k chips each to 10k from the other guy. The 3rd place guy went out on a horrific outdraw by the chip leader and just like I predicted before I was heads up with the guy who single handed built my stack.
HEADS UP
I told my buddy scroumf I would finish top 20 before I started because I haven't really played many pot limit tournaments but my fundamentals are solid and I knew heads up is a patient game yet again. After multiple raises preflop I decided to get aggressive as well and we both traded shots but I did keep a slight lead on him. The last hand of the tournament dealth me a KQ offsuit. The ironic thing about this hand is that I didn't play KQ once the entire tournament. I see so many people losing with this hand and I never play it unless I have position. Here in the hand history.
Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #2525870-70 at Mon5amA-Final (Pot Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 30/Aug/04 07:40:11
JChen is at seat 0 with 45220.
XXXXXXXX is at seat 5 with 64780.
The button is at seat 5.
XXXXXXXX posts the small blind of 600.
JChen posts the big blind of 1200.
JChen: -- --
XXXXXXXX: K
Q
Pre-flop:
XXXXXXXX calls. JChen raises to 2400. XXXXXXXX
re-raises to 7200. JChen calls.
Jchen raised every hand just like in the tournament and KQ is a very strong hand heads up so I popped him for 5x. Without hesitation he calls.
Flop (board: 9Flop (board: 9
J A):
JChen bets 1200. XXXXXXXX calls
A flop with some draw potential but when Jchen bets the blind ... Guess what he has :)
Turn (board: 9Turn (board: 9
): J): A): Q):):
JChen bets 1200. XXXXXXXX calls.
At this point I have 2nd pair with a good kicker, a straight draw and the nut flush draw. I could have raised him at this point by why knock him out now when I have so many cards to give me the nut hand.
River (board: 9
J A Q 3):
JChen bets 19200. XXXXXXXX goes all-in for 55180.
JChen goes all-in for 35620. XXXXXXXX is returned
19560 (uncalled).
I hit the nuts on the river and I have someone betting into me. I knew he had a diamond and I wondered if he ever got sick of the re-raising and the check raising. I put him all and luckily he called with his 8
Showdown:
JChen has 8Showdown:
JChen has 8
9 A Q 3: flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX has K
9 A Q 3: flush, ace high.
Hand #2525870-70 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
XXXXXXXX wins 90440 with flush, ace high.
JChen is eliminated.
-----------------------------------------------
I hit the nuts and he paid me off all game. I had a read on him and he never once changed his tactics. I won the $33 dollar first prize and that may not sound like a lot but I didn't risk any money to enter. I will take it and run.
I hope you enjoyed my tournament wrap up and I would like to leave with a few comments for the bloggers on here.
Yak/Rich if you want to put the club/diam/heart/spade pictures just message me on msn and I will provide you with the details how.
Also if you have to block out your names as well please use something other than XXXXXX. It is a little confusing and it will make seperating our posts a bit easier. Thank you and good night/morning :)
Thanks for the excellent analsys Pinny. Although under normal circumstances I would have never played that hand that way. I should have checked after the flop, thats for sure. After the the titlers raise if there had been any callers I would have mucked my hand (Im really not big on calling with nothing, even if there are odds to call).
If I had caught a hand on the flop I probably would have checked and let them bet, but because I didnt have a hand I was hoping to raise the pot a bit for my draw and perhaps get some information about the other players hands. My bet probably should have been bigger if I was looking to steal the pot right there, but ppl like to call any bet so did not want to put too many chips knowing a call was likely either way.) Turns out that I got invaluable information from the tilter and things played out well.
Right now Im really trying to pick my spots to make money, not risking my chips on maginal calls. I know that sooner or later a hand will come and pay off and that I should wait for those. However, when a time like this comes around and I can make a few bucks off it I dont mind taking it. It was a gamble yes, but his bet on the flop screamed out bullshit.
To quote from rounders "You cant lose what you dont put in the middle, but you can't win much either.
My gut was telling me to call. I hit the all-in button thinking he might just fold what ever crap he was playing. He ended up calling and my gut was right, I was best in the hand.
Just some more Info on why I played the hand the way I did. Maybe it makes more sense now.
If I had caught a hand on the flop I probably would have checked and let them bet, but because I didnt have a hand I was hoping to raise the pot a bit for my draw and perhaps get some information about the other players hands. My bet probably should have been bigger if I was looking to steal the pot right there, but ppl like to call any bet so did not want to put too many chips knowing a call was likely either way.) Turns out that I got invaluable information from the tilter and things played out well.
Right now Im really trying to pick my spots to make money, not risking my chips on maginal calls. I know that sooner or later a hand will come and pay off and that I should wait for those. However, when a time like this comes around and I can make a few bucks off it I dont mind taking it. It was a gamble yes, but his bet on the flop screamed out bullshit.
To quote from rounders "You cant lose what you dont put in the middle, but you can't win much either.
My gut was telling me to call. I hit the all-in button thinking he might just fold what ever crap he was playing. He ended up calling and my gut was right, I was best in the hand.
Just some more Info on why I played the hand the way I did. Maybe it makes more sense now.
Monday, August 30, 2004
This is what I envisioned this blog to be. I wanted to post hands and go through them and have people give me feedback on them and I would do the same for you. Yakko has been good enough to post some O8b hands so I will help you go through them. First a little house cleaning.
I hope I get to it this morning but due to my new job I only have time to play poker late nights on weekends and I entered a 1+0 PL holdem tournament. I will try to post about this as well after I go through yak's hand because it was a lot of fun and it involves pistol fucking (sorry for the language but it is neccessary).
Yak's Hand
Let us first start preflop. A2210 is a marginal but playable hand at best. At most low limit o8b games the pot will get raised because goons piss their pants every time they get AA,KK,QQ,A2 with any other two cards in their hand. There is one major problem with playing A22. If you hit an A all you have is a pair of two's and your dick in your hand. If you hit a 2 you might get stuck in a no-way out hand because you will call with trips. I do agree you should have made your call against a tilting player so all good so far.
Flop....
Mistake #1 Never ever ever bet on just a low nevermind a low DRAW. Building a pot in o8b is important, but right now you have a pair of 2's and there is almost one thing gauranteed. If a player bets preflop, there is a 99% chance that they will raise the pot post flop. This is the beauty of weak o8b games. You don't have to do anything to build the pot, the goons will do it for you.
Mistake #2 Calling the re-raise. Even though he was a goon you were calling for only the low with your type of hand. You were risking all your chips eventually on the flop, on a draw that has a good chance to be counterfitted anyways. I know it is tough to finally get an A2 but, it is like playing AK on the flop in holdem. In holdem AK is good enough for the flop and if you miss you fold. Dead simple. If you have nothing for a high draw get the hell outta dodge because the VERY best you can usually do is break even and there is a good chance you might get 1/4. A low draw is a terrible hand heads up with no high because your drawing on hope to get your money back. This is a very very important point and you can get hurt playing like this in the long term.
By compounding the two errors you risked your whole stack on little more than a poor draw with an expectation of just getting your money back. By checking and calling you a) might have drawn more people into the pot and b) only risked 36 cents for a low draw if you have to draw for it. O8b is not about limiting your opponents before the river. You want them drawing with A3 and hands that will pay you off. In holdem, you goal is to limit preflop and conquer. In O8b your job is to build the pot slowly for a river kill. You should never have your chips in the centre of the table on the flop, unless you hit a nut full house.
The turn card in this case just proves why it is a horrible play to get your money in because now he can be holding any cards 2-6 and take your low away from you and you only have a pair of mere aces to boot. The river brought nothing special and you gooned out a win.
The one thing I will say is that you did well recognizing your opponent was on tilt and called him with a playable hand. Your read was fine but I hate to say it, your post flop play was brutal and you really should have gone broke on this hand. I have watched you play before and your play is as good if not better than mine on most nights that I have observed. This hand you should use and go over again to shore up your game so you can increase your EV.
Thanks yakko for the hand and I hope everyone learns something by reading my constructive comments. The only way you get better in poker is to play, analyize and fix your mistakes. Every one makes them, but the good players fix them.
I hope I get to it this morning but due to my new job I only have time to play poker late nights on weekends and I entered a 1+0 PL holdem tournament. I will try to post about this as well after I go through yak's hand because it was a lot of fun and it involves pistol fucking (sorry for the language but it is neccessary).
Yak's Hand
Let us first start preflop. A2210 is a marginal but playable hand at best. At most low limit o8b games the pot will get raised because goons piss their pants every time they get AA,KK,QQ,A2 with any other two cards in their hand. There is one major problem with playing A22. If you hit an A all you have is a pair of two's and your dick in your hand. If you hit a 2 you might get stuck in a no-way out hand because you will call with trips. I do agree you should have made your call against a tilting player so all good so far.
Flop....
Mistake #1 Never ever ever bet on just a low nevermind a low DRAW. Building a pot in o8b is important, but right now you have a pair of 2's and there is almost one thing gauranteed. If a player bets preflop, there is a 99% chance that they will raise the pot post flop. This is the beauty of weak o8b games. You don't have to do anything to build the pot, the goons will do it for you.
Mistake #2 Calling the re-raise. Even though he was a goon you were calling for only the low with your type of hand. You were risking all your chips eventually on the flop, on a draw that has a good chance to be counterfitted anyways. I know it is tough to finally get an A2 but, it is like playing AK on the flop in holdem. In holdem AK is good enough for the flop and if you miss you fold. Dead simple. If you have nothing for a high draw get the hell outta dodge because the VERY best you can usually do is break even and there is a good chance you might get 1/4. A low draw is a terrible hand heads up with no high because your drawing on hope to get your money back. This is a very very important point and you can get hurt playing like this in the long term.
By compounding the two errors you risked your whole stack on little more than a poor draw with an expectation of just getting your money back. By checking and calling you a) might have drawn more people into the pot and b) only risked 36 cents for a low draw if you have to draw for it. O8b is not about limiting your opponents before the river. You want them drawing with A3 and hands that will pay you off. In holdem, you goal is to limit preflop and conquer. In O8b your job is to build the pot slowly for a river kill. You should never have your chips in the centre of the table on the flop, unless you hit a nut full house.
The turn card in this case just proves why it is a horrible play to get your money in because now he can be holding any cards 2-6 and take your low away from you and you only have a pair of mere aces to boot. The river brought nothing special and you gooned out a win.
The one thing I will say is that you did well recognizing your opponent was on tilt and called him with a playable hand. Your read was fine but I hate to say it, your post flop play was brutal and you really should have gone broke on this hand. I have watched you play before and your play is as good if not better than mine on most nights that I have observed. This hand you should use and go over again to shore up your game so you can increase your EV.
Thanks yakko for the hand and I hope everyone learns something by reading my constructive comments. The only way you get better in poker is to play, analyize and fix your mistakes. Every one makes them, but the good players fix them.
Saturday, August 28, 2004
Alright, I havnt posted anything at all in a while, but now that I'm making my way back into poker (b/c school is starting and I need some more distractions) I figure id start posting some hands iv been through and see what you guys have to say about them.
Hand #2478919-1121 at Lompoc (Pot Limit Omaha 8/b)
ImSmiling is at seat 1 with $6.37.
XXXXXis at seat 2 with $1.95.
stevejcia is at seat 3 with $1.73.
LUVMEUB is at seat 5 with $3.67 (sitting out).
Mystery Trips is at seat 6 with $1.
FourKing Hell is at seat 7 with $2.41.
Sir_mucksalot is at seat 8 with $10.93.
agent 86 is at seat 9 with $.09.
The button is at seat 9.
ImSmiling posts the small blind of $.01.
XXXXX posts the big blind of $.02.
XXXXX: Ac 2d Th 2s
Pre-flop:
stevejcia calls.
Mystery Trips folds.
FourKing Hell raises to $.09.
Sir_mucksalot calls. agent 86 folds.
ImSmiling calls.
XXXXX calls.
stevejcia calls.
Iv got an A2 in the bb .07 to call. FourKing Hell has been tilting. When he started he had $6 in front of him and has been paying out pretty well, so I figure a call isnt bad. I also hadnt played a hand yet and after 15 hands im itching to play so what the hell...
Flop (board: 6h Qd 7h):
ImSmiling checks.
XXXXXbets $.05. I bet .05 b/c Im a goon and think that im gonna get some good odds if I get a few callers and hit that low. Besides betting can also get rid of some ppl and is fun!! :P
stevejcia folds.
FourKing Hell raises to $.60. thats a big ass raise by the table tilter... I dont take much faith in his ablility to play 08/b, plus the guys is hard up to win and it sounds like hes stealing to me. So I got all in on his ass and hope for a pay day...(long pause on my part while I figure all this shit out)
Sir_mucksalot folds.
ImSmiling folds.
XXXXX goes all-in for $1.86. (about a 10 second pause on his part, all good for me :) )
FourKing Hell calls.
Turn (board: 6h Qd 7h As): (no action in this round)
River (board: 6h Qd 7h As 8c): (no action in this round)
Showdown: XXXXX shows Ac 2d Th 2s. XXXXX has Ac Th Qd As 8c: a pair of aces (high). XXXXX has Ac 2d 6h 7h 8c: 8 7 6 2 A (low).
FourKing Hell shows 2c Ad 2h 9s.
FourKing Hell has Ad 9s Qd As 8c: a pair of aces, queen/nine kickers (high).
FourKing Hell has 2c Ad 6h 7h 8c: 8 7 6 2 A (low).
XXXXX wins $2.09 with a pair of aces (high).
XXXXX wins $1.04 of a $2.08 pot with 8 7 6 2 A (low).
FourKing Hell wins $1.04 of a $2.08 pot with 8 7 6 2 A (low).----------------------------------------------------------------
BINGO! Pay Day...
thought it was an excellent read on my part.
Hand #2478919-1121 at Lompoc (Pot Limit Omaha 8/b)
ImSmiling is at seat 1 with $6.37.
XXXXXis at seat 2 with $1.95.
stevejcia is at seat 3 with $1.73.
LUVMEUB is at seat 5 with $3.67 (sitting out).
Mystery Trips is at seat 6 with $1.
FourKing Hell is at seat 7 with $2.41.
Sir_mucksalot is at seat 8 with $10.93.
agent 86 is at seat 9 with $.09.
The button is at seat 9.
ImSmiling posts the small blind of $.01.
XXXXX posts the big blind of $.02.
XXXXX: Ac 2d Th 2s
Pre-flop:
stevejcia calls.
Mystery Trips folds.
FourKing Hell raises to $.09.
Sir_mucksalot calls. agent 86 folds.
ImSmiling calls.
XXXXX calls.
stevejcia calls.
Iv got an A2 in the bb .07 to call. FourKing Hell has been tilting. When he started he had $6 in front of him and has been paying out pretty well, so I figure a call isnt bad. I also hadnt played a hand yet and after 15 hands im itching to play so what the hell...
Flop (board: 6h Qd 7h):
ImSmiling checks.
XXXXXbets $.05. I bet .05 b/c Im a goon and think that im gonna get some good odds if I get a few callers and hit that low. Besides betting can also get rid of some ppl and is fun!! :P
stevejcia folds.
FourKing Hell raises to $.60. thats a big ass raise by the table tilter... I dont take much faith in his ablility to play 08/b, plus the guys is hard up to win and it sounds like hes stealing to me. So I got all in on his ass and hope for a pay day...(long pause on my part while I figure all this shit out)
Sir_mucksalot folds.
ImSmiling folds.
XXXXX goes all-in for $1.86. (about a 10 second pause on his part, all good for me :) )
FourKing Hell calls.
Turn (board: 6h Qd 7h As): (no action in this round)
River (board: 6h Qd 7h As 8c): (no action in this round)
Showdown: XXXXX shows Ac 2d Th 2s. XXXXX has Ac Th Qd As 8c: a pair of aces (high). XXXXX has Ac 2d 6h 7h 8c: 8 7 6 2 A (low).
FourKing Hell shows 2c Ad 2h 9s.
FourKing Hell has Ad 9s Qd As 8c: a pair of aces, queen/nine kickers (high).
FourKing Hell has 2c Ad 6h 7h 8c: 8 7 6 2 A (low).
XXXXX wins $2.09 with a pair of aces (high).
XXXXX wins $1.04 of a $2.08 pot with 8 7 6 2 A (low).
FourKing Hell wins $1.04 of a $2.08 pot with 8 7 6 2 A (low).----------------------------------------------------------------
BINGO! Pay Day...
thought it was an excellent read on my part.
Wednesday, August 25, 2004
Just like Rich I made my Ali like return to the ring in party poker after they offered me almost $50 US to play with them again. How can I refuse such a generous offer when I should be playing here full time anyways. This time I have more experience against bad players in action games and I hope to really give it a good go. I have been studying how to beat these types of games and it is not the easiest thing to do espeically at tables with over $40 pot averages at 25$ buy in tables. I have also changed my methods of figuring out wins and losses by only recording them once a week now instead of every session. I found that recording results after every day really put the pressure to show results more often and to play less tournaments and sit n go's because I did not want to record a loss for the day. With the new method I will play as I see fit and play what games I feel like playing at any given time. I am curious to see how this changes my already stellar results.
In my first session back I played 1.5 hours of o8b and my bb/hr was 7.5. Exellent start with my new method and system. Here is a gem that put me over the limit. The funny thing about this hand was that I sat there for almost 90 minutes playing nothing and I didn't even win 1 hand at this table. I had a few nice hands that I had to call raises with and I couldn't hit shit. O8b proves it only takes 1 hand to get you into the big money so be patient even if it seems like an eternity since you last played a flop. 1 hand Made my money for me today and that is usually how it is on an average day considering how often you hit a flop.
***** Hand History for Game 879940487 *****
Table Take chances (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: chipferg ( $50.32 )
Seat 4: skibum1 ( $155.68 )
Seat 6: ICECRM ( $62.83 )
Seat 7: russegb ( $37.5 )
Seat 8: pamjamrocks ( $42.07 )
Seat 9: Luckydawg68 ( $58.8 )
Seat 10: XXXXXXXX ( $23.25 )
Seat 5: etudeOP ( $23.5 )
Seat 2: glmi6910 ( $22 )
etudeOP posts small blind [$0.25].
ICECRM posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to XXXXXXXX [ 3 4
A 5 ]
I got dealt this hand in middle position and the table was one of the loosest tables I have played at in quite some time so I knew I would have to call a raise. I was willing to put in about 4x the big blind in this case because my hand was good and defintely worth a call. The hand was raised .50 cents and I called. Playing a345 really is an easy hand post-flop. If 2 hearts or a two doesn't show on the flop your done. Nice and simple, no complicated decisions need to take place so the hand really plays itself.
pamjamrocks raises [$1].
Luckydawg68 calls [$1].
XXXXXXXX calls [$1].
glmi6910 folds.
skibum1 calls [$1].
etudeOP calls [$0.75].
ICECRM calls [$0.5].
With call stations behind me I knew this pot would get atleast 4-5 way and sure enough 6 people seen the flop at a buck a pop.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2, 7, 2 ]
Potential thy name is XXXXXXXX. Not only did I hit a two, but I also hit 2 hearts. The pair on the board was somewhat troublesome but I can't think of too many hands that would have a two and a seven in it that someone would call with.
etudeOP checks.
ICECRM checks.
pamjamrocks bets [$5.7].
Luckydawg68 folds.
XXXXXXXX calls [$5.7].
skibum1 folds.
etudeOP folds.
ICECRM folds.
When someone bets the pot on this type of flop the are hopelessly trying to protect their trips. Calling here is automatic because I have more outs than he does if he hasn't already gotten a full house. Chances are the seven would not have done it so I still thought my flush draw was good and I could hit any low and not be counterfitted. Easy Call
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6 ]
pamjamrocks bets [$16.55].
XXXXXXXX is all-In.
I got a heart and I got my unbeatable low. At the very worst I was getting 50% of the pot and I knew he was still trying to draw to his full house. Right now I was sure I had 100% of the pot and I called instantly.
** Dealing River ** [ Q ]
pamjamrocks shows [ J, A, 4, 2 ] three of a kind, twos.
pamjamrocks shows 7,6,4,2,A for low.
XXXXXXXX shows [ 3, 4, A, 5 ] a flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX shows 7,6,3,2,A for low.
XXXXXXXX wins $24 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX wins Lo ($24) from the main pot with 7,6,3,2,A.
The bet on the flop gave it away. He did have outs but when there is more than 1 draw that can hurt you, a bet of 1/3 to half the pot is a much wiser bet to make. If the turn brought the card that it did you can check and throw away your hand if the pot is bet back at you. In this case it is an easy throw away because not only did he not have the full house but he wasn't even drawing near the nut full house. He trapped himself. In O8b it is not what you have but what you are drawing to that counts.
PPS. Just played my first sit n go in my return. Went bust against AA but I finished 3rd luckily. I got lucky to win with KK fuck me :). I deserved to place where I did but I shouldn't have to get lucky to win with KK against QJ offsuit.
In my first session back I played 1.5 hours of o8b and my bb/hr was 7.5. Exellent start with my new method and system. Here is a gem that put me over the limit. The funny thing about this hand was that I sat there for almost 90 minutes playing nothing and I didn't even win 1 hand at this table. I had a few nice hands that I had to call raises with and I couldn't hit shit. O8b proves it only takes 1 hand to get you into the big money so be patient even if it seems like an eternity since you last played a flop. 1 hand Made my money for me today and that is usually how it is on an average day considering how often you hit a flop.
***** Hand History for Game 879940487 *****
Table Take chances (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: chipferg ( $50.32 )
Seat 4: skibum1 ( $155.68 )
Seat 6: ICECRM ( $62.83 )
Seat 7: russegb ( $37.5 )
Seat 8: pamjamrocks ( $42.07 )
Seat 9: Luckydawg68 ( $58.8 )
Seat 10: XXXXXXXX ( $23.25 )
Seat 5: etudeOP ( $23.5 )
Seat 2: glmi6910 ( $22 )
etudeOP posts small blind [$0.25].
ICECRM posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to XXXXXXXX [ 3
4 A 5 ]
I got dealt this hand in middle position and the table was one of the loosest tables I have played at in quite some time so I knew I would have to call a raise. I was willing to put in about 4x the big blind in this case because my hand was good and defintely worth a call. The hand was raised .50 cents and I called. Playing a345 really is an easy hand post-flop. If 2 hearts or a two doesn't show on the flop your done. Nice and simple, no complicated decisions need to take place so the hand really plays itself.
pamjamrocks raises [$1].
Luckydawg68 calls [$1].
XXXXXXXX calls [$1].
glmi6910 folds.
skibum1 calls [$1].
etudeOP calls [$0.75].
ICECRM calls [$0.5].
With call stations behind me I knew this pot would get atleast 4-5 way and sure enough 6 people seen the flop at a buck a pop.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2
, 7, 2 ]
Potential thy name is XXXXXXXX. Not only did I hit a two, but I also hit 2 hearts. The pair on the board was somewhat troublesome but I can't think of too many hands that would have a two and a seven in it that someone would call with.
etudeOP checks.
ICECRM checks.
pamjamrocks bets [$5.7].
Luckydawg68 folds.
XXXXXXXX calls [$5.7].
skibum1 folds.
etudeOP folds.
ICECRM folds.
When someone bets the pot on this type of flop the are hopelessly trying to protect their trips. Calling here is automatic because I have more outs than he does if he hasn't already gotten a full house. Chances are the seven would not have done it so I still thought my flush draw was good and I could hit any low and not be counterfitted. Easy Call
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6
]
pamjamrocks bets [$16.55].
XXXXXXXX is all-In.
I got a heart and I got my unbeatable low. At the very worst I was getting 50% of the pot and I knew he was still trying to draw to his full house. Right now I was sure I had 100% of the pot and I called instantly.
** Dealing River ** [ Q
]
pamjamrocks shows [ J
, A, 4, 2 ] three of a kind, twos.
pamjamrocks shows 7,6,4,2,A for low.
XXXXXXXX shows [ 3
, 4, A, 5 ] a flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX shows 7,6,3,2,A for low.
XXXXXXXX wins $24 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
XXXXXXXX wins Lo ($24) from the main pot with 7,6,3,2,A.
The bet on the flop gave it away. He did have outs but when there is more than 1 draw that can hurt you, a bet of 1/3 to half the pot is a much wiser bet to make. If the turn brought the card that it did you can check and throw away your hand if the pot is bet back at you. In this case it is an easy throw away because not only did he not have the full house but he wasn't even drawing near the nut full house. He trapped himself. In O8b it is not what you have but what you are drawing to that counts.
PPS. Just played my first sit n go in my return. Went bust against AA but I finished 3rd luckily. I got lucky to win with KK fuck me :). I deserved to place where I did but I shouldn't have to get lucky to win with KK against QJ offsuit.
Friday, August 20, 2004
hahah nice post Rich :). New job has been sucking up a lot of time and I haven't really played poker in a week but I still managed to make $50+ this week. Hand histories are still pending when there is time but for now a short post to show this blog is still alive and kicking. Stay tuned to my 2-3 readers there will be some good posts up and coming.
Monday, August 09, 2004
Boom shaka laka, BOOM. I just placed 4th outta over 1850 people in the 1+0 NL holdem event. For risking one of my dollars I got over $120 to show for my 4 hours of work. In the end I got screwed out of an extra 40$ by a guy hitting a 2 outer against me but I will not complain with my results. In the end, my AQ suited was taken down by AK and that suits me just fine (Sorry for the pun :). I played like a champ and if blogger didn't crash last night I could have pointed to the tournament lessons I tried to post last night. In this very compressed attempt I will post my 3 points to winning tournaments.
1. You gotta win 75% of your coin flops and favorite hands.
Besides my last hand where I lost my 5's against a guys 4's I won a good majority of my coin flips. Early on I won AK vs QQ and JJ vs AQ. When you win your coin flips good results aren't far behind.
2. You gotta make atleast 1 good bluff an hour that impacts your stack.
Before the final table I played only 18% of hands meaning I was a very very tight player. The key difference is when I played a hand I played to win and even if I missed I still took some some nice pots because of my table image.
3. You gotta outdraw someone to win.
I can't honestly say I remember when I outdrew someone but I am sure it happened. Don't under estimate this point.
There ya have it. The turning point of the tournament was when I won the back to back coin flip hands to go from 300/600 to about 50/600. After that I never looked back and I was always in the top half of the group from there on in. When we reached the money (Started at 135/1853), I only had 13k (Average Stack) but with 2 nice bluffs and hitting a monster hand against a chip leader I eventually had over 800k at my peak before I went down. I now have over a grand in career earnings in under a year of online play. Considering the stakes I play, I am quite estatic with the results so far and the sky is the limit for me. Time to take a badly needed break from poker for awhile to reflect and to refocus so I can double my results in good time.
I still do mean to post some O8b hands but they will wait until I am bored and will happen eventually. For tonight It is time to celebrate and relax. Peace out
1. You gotta win 75% of your coin flops and favorite hands.
Besides my last hand where I lost my 5's against a guys 4's I won a good majority of my coin flips. Early on I won AK vs QQ and JJ vs AQ. When you win your coin flips good results aren't far behind.
2. You gotta make atleast 1 good bluff an hour that impacts your stack.
Before the final table I played only 18% of hands meaning I was a very very tight player. The key difference is when I played a hand I played to win and even if I missed I still took some some nice pots because of my table image.
3. You gotta outdraw someone to win.
I can't honestly say I remember when I outdrew someone but I am sure it happened. Don't under estimate this point.
There ya have it. The turning point of the tournament was when I won the back to back coin flip hands to go from 300/600 to about 50/600. After that I never looked back and I was always in the top half of the group from there on in. When we reached the money (Started at 135/1853), I only had 13k (Average Stack) but with 2 nice bluffs and hitting a monster hand against a chip leader I eventually had over 800k at my peak before I went down. I now have over a grand in career earnings in under a year of online play. Considering the stakes I play, I am quite estatic with the results so far and the sky is the limit for me. Time to take a badly needed break from poker for awhile to reflect and to refocus so I can double my results in good time.
I still do mean to post some O8b hands but they will wait until I am bored and will happen eventually. For tonight It is time to celebrate and relax. Peace out
Saturday, August 07, 2004
2.5 hours later and all I have to show for it is 20th outta 87 this week in the 1+0 rebuy. I had a big hand (A245) and I pushed my luck with it to try and take some badly needed blinds. I ran up against A2JJ and he hit a jack to eliminate me. I would have had about 5 blinds left if I didn't push it so hard but I would have hit 3 4's on the flop and there was no way out for me. Once again I lost to the biggest idiot at the table early on who should have been eliminated a dozen or so times but what can ya do. I finished 10 spots from the money and considering I had 3 A2's the whole tournament I guess I did alright. Pity though, I really thought I had a good chance to place. The last two tournaments I have played, I have been eliminated at the 2nd to last table. So close yet so far....., time for bed.
Thursday, August 05, 2004
I was going to post a bunch of hands that I have saved up in the last week or so but I played a bonus dollar freeroll on ub tonight. I caught back to back river cards to be in contention so I won't post the hands tonight. I am kind of ashamed of my performance but it is nice to have the luck near the end of the tournament. I am sitting in 26/38 at the break and I gotta make a run soon if I am gonna be around for the final table. Hopefully tommorow I will post my backlog of hands so to my 3 readers :), stay tuned for some updates.
PS. Just for note 2394 people started and RICH BE PROUD. Just doubled up with 22 :)
PPS. Well you live by the sword you die by the sword. I was crusing in the tournament and had almost 100k in chips and I called an all in with AQ vs KQ and he hit a flush on me. I ended up finishing 18/2394 which is a great result but I would have loved to make the final table. If I really want to be honest I was very lucky to even get to 18 so I should be happy how it ended. Time for bed.
PS. Just for note 2394 people started and RICH BE PROUD. Just doubled up with 22 :)
PPS. Well you live by the sword you die by the sword. I was crusing in the tournament and had almost 100k in chips and I called an all in with AQ vs KQ and he hit a flush on me. I ended up finishing 18/2394 which is a great result but I would have loved to make the final table. If I really want to be honest I was very lucky to even get to 18 so I should be happy how it ended. Time for bed.
